Norman Bergrun

[unipax]

If this is not old news to youse .......

Via the Camelot video interview, John Lear has reminded me about that big object in Saturn's rings which I heard mentioned on Art Bell's show years ago.

Lear spoke of Norm Bergrun, author of "Ringmakers of Saturn", who got Voyager 1 negatives of Saturn flyby. He spotted 3 objects in the rings of Saturn. The biggest was 31,496 miles long by 2,422 in diameter. John Lear referred to them as 'vehicles' and 'spaceships'.

Norman R. Bergrun worked 40 yrs in Aerospace, was part of NASA's predecessor National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics, managed projects at Lockheed etc etc.

Anyways I was pleased to recover that bit of info which I'd heard years ago. That is a big ship. I thought that maybe some here might also find it interesting.

BUT, is it true?
As always these days I wonder, could this item be another bit of disinfo planted as misdirection ....?

Lear was using that story as an example of who might have been capable of installing the moon into earth orbit approx 30-40K yrs ago.

So..... how credible is Norm Bergrun, and for that matter, how credible is John Lear?

Just askin .....

[unipax]

oooops

I corrected his name in the first post, but I didnt correct it in the title of this thread

His name is Bergrun, not Bergman

[Norval]

I think John Lear is intentionally lying about some things or he wouldn't even be smart enough to fly a plane. As for something as big as this;

He spotted 3 objects in the rings of Saturn. The biggest was 31,496 miles long by 2,422 in diameter.
Hell, Sfth, you could see that in your telescope.

[unipax]

I think John Lear is intentionally lying about some things or he wouldn't even be smart enough to fly a plane. As for something as big as this;

Hell, Sfth, you could see that in your telescope.


Earth's Circumference Between the North and South Poles: 24859.82 miles (40008 km).
Earth's Diameter at the Equator: 7926.28 miles (12756.1 km)

Bergrun's object:
31,496 miles long by 2,422 in diameter.



So the 31,496 mi length of Bergrun's object would be about 4X the diameter of earth, but Bergrun's would be kinda skinny at 2422 mi in "diameter"
(assuming it is round, not box shaped)

Oh well.
It was an intriguing item.

[unipax]

by Norval:
I think John Lear is intentionally lying about some things or he wouldn't even be smart enough to fly a plane.

Thats an intriguing statement Norval.
To me it implies that Lear would be dumb to tell the truth, for some reason.....?
Care to elaborate or correct my impression of your drift?

[sfth13]

I think John Lear is intentionally lying about some things or he wouldn't even be smart enough to fly a plane. As for something as big as this;

Hell, Sfth, you could see that in your telescope.


that picture was as close as I got. it was actually a video that was broken down into individual frames and then align and staked using registax. that's why it looks a little fuzzy. .. but I do see many things that appear to be stars moving through my eyepiece. some i'd say are satellites but not the ones that change direction. Saturn is in the night sky now so maybe i'll go have a closer look.

[unipax]

sfth said:

... some i'd say are satellites but not the ones that change direction.

I'll bet those get your attention when you're watching them !

[Gale]

I think John Lear is intentionally lying about some things or he wouldn't even be smart enough to fly a plane.

Lear also has a flippant attitude.

[sfth13]

I'll bet those get your attention when you're watching them !

they sure do! and it's always when I least expect them. one night I was loooking or trying to look at Bodes Nebula and a small pinpoint of light started to move across the eyepiece and the it stopped and then it started again. it was very small and a golden color light. I know they're out there is just a different feeling when you actually seem it.

[Norval]

John Lear has made the statements about atmosphere (breathable) on the moon.
No way is that possible without very high tech applications like force fields or something. IMHO

His statement about not being able to fly a jet into the twin towers, according to the flight paths given of the jets that supposedly did, with a flight simulator. BS, because I and others can at settings that are "real life". Personally I think he may be getting senile, , , or something, , ,

Yes, there are many objects out there that we can see with modern amateur telescopes. Sure pisses me off about not having the truth coming from our big scopes and satellites, , grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[unipax]

Someone (was it Zorgon?) said that even with Hubble, the leftover Apollo gear would not be discernible.

I was pleased to finally have an answer to that question about Hubble spotting Apollo gear.
However, the answer surprised me because I thought Hubble was some kinda super scope

[₣яэđĸĊ]

Sure pisses me off about not having the truth coming from our big scopes and satellites,

Amazing, isn't it? I mean, they can tell you what brand of smokes you have in your shirt pocket from space, but all we seem to get are pictures of the moon, using 1950's technology at best.

As Ingo Swann said. for all they say they're getting for the mega-bucks dumped into space research, ("yeah, keep it coming! We're getting tons of stuff!) the mindset of folk remains (is kept) that the moon is but a dead rock. "Nothing to see here, move along."

[zorgon]

To me it implies that Lear would be dumb to tell the truth, for some reason.....?
Care to elaborate or correct my impression of your drift?

I always find it amusing how people without facts make character judgments...

Must be that BAD ET influence LOL

One thing to remember is John did fly for the CIA,something that has now been verified by a thank you letter from Congress removing the gag order...

[zorgon]

with a flight simulator. BS, because I and others can at settings that are "real life".

Can you show me the records of the simulator time you (and others) booked to recreate those real life settings? Its very difficult and expensive to get simulator time so you should have no trouble providing me with that evidence in the form of a receipt...

Otherwise I would have to call BS on YOUR story ...

BTW the direction they came from would have required them to fly around a category five hurricane just off New York's shore that day... a fact left out in mainstream news...

Interesting how they didn't think a storm that big off New York that day was interesting?

[Bobbi]

Actually hurricane Erin never got past a Category 3 and by 9/11 had been downgraded to a Category 1, with only warnings of rough seas for the US east coast. The edge of the storm was approximately 150-200 miles offshore. Would it be necessary to fly that far offshore to turn a plane around?

[Norval]

Can you show me the records of the simulator time you (and others) booked to recreate those real life settings? Its very difficult and expensive to get simulator time so you should have no trouble providing me with that evidence in the form of a receipt...

Otherwise I would have to call BS on YOUR story ...

You don't get a receipt when you OWN the simulator Zorgon, , , :)


Bull Shit back guy, , , :lol:

[unipax]

Quote:
Originally Posted by unipax View Post
To me it implies that Lear would be dumb to tell the truth, for some reason.....?
Care to elaborate or correct my impression of your drift?


I always find it amusing how people without facts make character judgments...

Must be that BAD ET influence LOL

One thing to remember is John did fly for the CIA,something that has now been verified by a thank you letter from Congress removing the gag order...

I must have made that unclear, sorry Zorg.
I avoid making character judgements even when I have "facts"
..and I'm first to admit that I dont have facts

What I meant to say was;
I did not understand what you meant about lear, and I thought that you were implying that he was smart to avoid tellling the truth, ie that he would be 'dumb to tell the truth'.

[unipax]

BTW the direction they came from would have required them to fly around a category five hurricane just off New York's shore that day... a fact left out in mainstream news...

Interesting how they didn't think a storm that big off New York that day was interesting?

Also interesting how that storm turned right and skipped NYC after heading right for it for a few days

[Heretic]

Not that I don't mind kicking around about the 911 attacks, either the planer or no planer theories, nor do I mind discussing the differences between the A340 flight simulator by McDonald Douglas or the streamlined much cheaper A340 FTD system compared with something you could "own"

but are we discussing these ships?



Original Pic Release @
http://hubblesite.org
Hubble News Release Number: STScI-1996-18

Saturn HST-WFPC2
PRC96-18b-ST Sci OPO-April 26, 1996
P. Nicholson (Cornell) and NASA (http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/1996/18/image/b/format/web_print/)

[unipax]

[QUOTE=Heretic;3029]

but are we discussing these ships?



Maybe

I saw one image, in Camelots interview of John Lear. He was showing Bergrun's book and an image of 3 objects in Saturn's rings that were seen occassionally.

That image was not the same one you posted.

[zorgon]

So..... how credible is Norm Bergrun, and for that matter, how credible is John Lear?


How credible are YOU? How credible is Norval? How credible am I?

One thing is certain about Norm Bergrun and John Lear... they have the credentials to back up who they say they worked for... and that is a lot more than most of the whistle blowers can claim

Yet we chose who we believe... same as any religion...

Facts are irrelevant

However if you want more info from us of unknown repute....




http://www.thelivingmoon.com/46_mike_singh/03files/Ships_Saturn.html

There is a lot of material gathered on the cylindrical ships around Saturn. Its a busy place and even has a few tethers floating around...




And what are these that NASA is tracking?

[zorgon]

Alien Speech Found in NASA's Saturn Radio Signal

[zorgon]

Also go here...

http://www.spacesounds.com/navigator/index.html

Then pick Jupiter, then Ganymede... listen to the whole thing (its 4 minutes) I call this one "ET PHONED HOME"

[Norval]

, , , , , , , , isn't it interesting not one of the so called ones of "repute" ever discovered CS crater chains being evidence of war weapons, nor their most probable true cause? Solar system war!

[zorgon]

Well they can't admit to that because then they would have to reveal the Solar Warden space fleet that is still fighting it

[unipax]

How credible are YOU? How credible is Norval? How credible am I?

a.
discerning disinfo artists versus sincere ones
I have no reason to say that you Lear, Bergrun or Norval are disinfo guys.

b.
the real issue for me therefore usually is whether or not the sincere ones are repeating disinfo they swallowed innocently.

But thats kinda moot lately.
Actually I think Lear and Bergrun are good guys. I know John is your pal.
But that Zorgster guy....I dunno about him !
Just Kidding Z.
Your various comments have shown me that you ask the right questions, and I really appreciate the fact that you deliver the goods as you know them.

Now regarding how credible I am .............

:bananen_smilies077:

[unipax]

pulling my foot outta my mouth....

And not to omit Norval since you mentioned him too ...

I'm comfy here with Norval and yerself (and the rest of the crew here.)

and thanks Z for delivering the imagery re the story I heard on Art Bell so long ago.

That is one piece of the puzzle I really value....pics of big things navigating our sol system....cool!

[Norval]

I would have to say the Bergrun is a "Whistle Blower".

There have been many that have come forward with photos that indicate very large ships. Some of them have proved to be fake, some real.


"a.
discerning disinfo artists versus sincere ones
I have no reason to say that you Lear, Bergrun or Norval are disinfo guys.

b.
the real issue for me therefore usually is whether or not the sincere ones are repeating
disinfo they swallowed innocently."

Well said and stated Unipax. My head and Gale's went on the block when we started to post about the Concise and Systematic (CS) crater chains. (A part of our whistle blowing.) Some of these whistle blowers have been eaten alive out here in cyber space. Some are not whistle blowers, but just ones coming forward with collaborative information or other forms of verification. Credibility for me comes in the form of reasoning backed with experience and self edumacation. :)

[unipax]

I must have made that unclear, sorry Zorg.
I avoid making character judgements even when I have "facts"
..and I'm first to admit that I dont have facts.

What I meant to say was;
I did not understand , and I thought that you were implying that he was smart to avoid tellling the truth, ie that he would be 'dumb to tell the truth'.

Zorgz
I reviewed this thread, checking for any chunks of foot remaining in my mouth.
When I said "what you meant about Lear" it was about Norval's remark in post #3.
It wasnt about anything you said re Lear.

It should have read:

"I did not understand, and I thought that Norval was implying that he was smart to avoid tellling the truth..."[/QUOTE]

...and again re chararcter judgement of Lear...I was merely speculating that if he was lying about anything it might be that for some reason he is not so dumb as to tell the truth (and perhaps thereby endanger himself, or expose his position too much)

[unipax]

Credibility for me comes in the form of reasoning backed with experience and self edumacation. :)

hear, here and here, hear

& thnx too

[Norval]

Naw, that was me that was a bit derogatory about John Lear, I may have been a bit hasty about that. But I can still fly a commercial jet into the towers according to the known flight paths on a flight sim set to origional weather for the day. :)

Agreed, the moon is not 1/6th gravity, but as Lear states, 60% of earths.

Lear is not dumb by any means, and not dumb enough to make any statements that would get him in trouble. (Well, not too much trouble.)