Forum Astro Vera, Your Take?

[Norval]

Well, what do you think happend there, or do you know?

Norval, Gale, and Bobbi CURSE Michael Bennie for what he did to Gary, Bobbi, Gale, and Norval.

What say any that read this?

[Gale]

My sympathy goes to the two little girls, if he really has two little girls, they could be just more figments of his online persona, like sarael, his female persona. :shit:

[Norval]

I doubt his wife, , if indeed he has one , would post the lies he spouted, , LOL

[Gale]

I wonder what all he is hiding on that server?:cheers2::alien::spam::bananen_smilies033:

[Terran]

Well, what do you think happened there, or do you know?

Norval, Gale, and Bobbi CURSE Michael Bennie for what he did to Gary, Bobbi, Gale, and Norval.

What say any that read this?

This is my first post in The Ring. Is it safe here?

That's a strong statement there, Norval. I understand why you state it so emphatically.

I am not unsympathetic to the injustice that you, Bobbi, Gale and Gary have suffered at AV, but I am of the opinion that everyone made mistakes, and has something to learn from this episode. Does that make me a fence sitter? I'll let you be the judge of that after you read what I have to say.

I know this is a fresh wound. I am compelled to write not with the intention of making things worse, but to understand for myself what happened, and to do this in a way that is fair to everyone involved.

What we just witnessed play out is the idea that possession is nine-tenths of ownership, but does that make it right?

1. You, Gale, Bobbi and Gary came up with the idea for a new forum, and an agreement was struck with Michael to host it on Astro Vera. This was a mistake. If you pay a service provider to host your forum, that is one thing. However, if you create a forum and then bring it to Michael's site, your claim to ownership of the forum is clouded to say the least. How well did you know Michael to entrust him with the keys to the enterprise?

2. The forum was created. Each member of the founding group contributed ideas, money for software, technical expertise, word of mouth advertising, untold hours of time to get the forum up and running. This was creativity at it's finest! Each member of the founding group has a clear sense of an ownership stake in the venture based of the work they put into it. The forum finds an audience, and thrives for its first two and a half weeks.

3. Fast forward to THE DEED. Michael found your deletion of a couple of posts objectionable, and in his eyes sufficient grounds for suspension of your moderator status. When I read about that I had the distinct impression that Michael had been watching you like a hawk, and was just waiting for you to make a 'false move.' It was as if Michael instinctively knew that his vision for AV could not come to fruition with you all around. He was clearly jealous of the interest and the following your voices had on the forum, and was looking for the first opportunity to force you out.

4. What were your options at this juncture? Several people have voiced their opinion that you should have stayed on, and hashed out your differences with Michael privately, or perhaps with the assistance of a mediator. Did you see this as an option, and if not, why not? By walking away at this point, you gave everyone the impression that you were not willing to stand your ground; that you chose to leave.

5. Then there is the whole issue of ownership of the vBulletin license. Bobbi paid for the license that the forum was operating on. What were her rights and privileges as sole owner of the software license? Did that mean that ownership of the forum was hers? If so, what could she have done to enforce her ownership at that time, even if the forum was hosted on Michael's website?

6. We all know what happened next. Michael sidestepped the whole license ownership issue by purchasing another license for the software. That completed the coup. At least on the face of things, Michael had consolidated his claim to sole ownership of the forum. At the same time, he banned you, Gale and Bobbi for disagreeing with him! I found that very childish on his part.

Clearly, there is a legal side to this dispute, and an ethical and moral side. The injustice I see is that the claim to ownership of the AV forum lies in a grey area. Michael's claim to ownership of the forum is based solely on his administrative control of the web site, and the Astro Vera name. That does not make it right. I don't think that people signed on as members to the AV forum because of the Astro Vera name! Considering how the forum came together as a collaborative effort, Michael was and is under a moral obligation to make things right, whatever that means at this late date.

If there were legal means for redressing your grievances, would you pursue them? What is at stake here? Supposing you are able to win title to ownership of the AV forum through legal means, is it worth the time, money and hassle? Perhaps discretion points to building on the fine beginning you've made here, and in trusting that the quality of the conversation engendered will bring to this forum its intended audience.

Corrected per request. NLC

[Terran]

Janitors, cleanup needed please!!! (And ten minute rule be d**med)

In the post above, I meant to say in the fifth sentence down "possession is nine-tenths of ownership", not vice-versa.

Thank you.

[Gale]

1- Michael donated his server for the forum claiming it has lots of space.
2- Bobbi owns the licence to the software.
3- No posts were deleted, that’s a lie. His vision of the forum, you got that right.
4- We were banned, we did not walk away. After the ban is lifted, why should we post there again? The foundation of that forum was for everything to be above board, so everyone could see. He locked us out so slick, I suspect he has done this before. Michael did not want to answer a simple question of accountability because he knows he has been wrong and did wrong.
5- If your fishing to find out what recourse Bobbi has, why should we disclose this?
6- Childish is not the correct word.

I will tell you this; he put most of Norval’s and my threads under Phillip’s control. Those threads were to have vital information in them that people need; they were intended to build over time. People can’t take sensitive information all at once; they will literally pop. So now the way those threads are, the information will get twisted. Phillip is a twister of words, all one has to do is to study his posts, his wording to know this is true. Let alone, his is coming at the information from a religious footing, which is twisted from the start, (1) so he won't even know himself that he is wrong. They are so confident in their incompetence.
As for Michael, he is an opportunist and a gambler; he will do whatever he has to so aka Michael will thrive.
From my standpoint, Michael should have the full blunt of the legal system rammed up his :asshole: so far he wouldn’t be able to breathe. But since Norval cursed him in the name of our Creator with Bobbi and I both in agreement, Michael will get his comeuppance.
As his behaviour will demonstrate, when things get too hot for him in one place, he will pack up and disappear to begin again in another district, so what would happen to your precious AV, oh probably Phillip if he is able to pay to have it moved off to another server before that one goes tits up. But this is just speculation, mind you.
The bottom line Terran, no body has time for this crap. Remember time is cut short on account of the Elect/Holy Ones so why should anyone waste they’re time with a piece of :shit:
Has this given enough fuel for AV to stab us again? Oh indubitably. They will try.
Every word I put in this post will be twisted, so task fulfilled.

1-Note: he won't even know himself that he is wrong, remember “God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie”.

[Gary]

Janitors, cleanup needed please!!! (And ten minute rule be d**med)

In the post above, I meant to say in the fifth sentence down "possession is nine-tenths of ownership", not vice-versa.

Thank you.

Wow Terran, you know more about what happened than I do!

Well I for one am glad what happened, It's better to happen now than a couple of years down the line and while this forum has started a little more slowly I have a good feeling about it, it feels nice, I don't want to spend a second more discussing Michael and his coup, lets move on!

[Heretic]

I will tell you this; he put most of Norval’s and my threads under Phillip’s control. Those threads were to have vital information in them that people need; they were intended to build over time. People can’t take sensitive information all at once; they will literally pop. So now the way those threads are, the information will get twisted. Phillip is a twister of words, all one has to do is to study his posts, his wording to know this is true. Let alone, his is coming at the information from a religious footing, which is twisted from the start, (1) so he won't even know himself that he is wrong. They are so confident in their incompetence.
As for Michael, he is an opportunist and a gambler; he will do whatever he has to so aka Michael will thrive.
From my standpoint, Michael should have the full blunt of the legal system rammed up his :asshole: so far he wouldn’t be able to breathe. But since Norval cursed him in the name of our Creator with Bobbi and I both in agreement, Michael will get his comeuppance.
As his behaviour will demonstrate, when things get too hot for him in one place, he will pack up and disappear to begin again in another district, so what would happen to your precious AV, oh probably Phillip if he is able to pay to have it moved off to another server before that one goes tits up. But this is just speculation, mind you.
The bottom line Terran, no body has time for this crap. Remember time is cut short on account of the Elect/Holy Ones so why should anyone waste they’re time with a piece of :shit:
Has this given enough fuel for AV to stab us again? Oh indubitably. They will try.
Every word I put in this post will be twisted, so task fulfilled.

1-Note: he won't even know himself that he is wrong, remember “God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie”.

Wow your really mad. I dont blame you but dont let that anger hurt ya...anyway I saw it as a necessary road to lead you to Earth's Banner. What you should have made in the first place if I may be so bold. Your vision, your forum, no one else in the governing body.

OMG Phillip had control? That man is either on some of the first steps of spiritual development and self deluded until he gets that first "spiritual bankruptcy", you can tell he hasn't had one yet. Or he is a professional troll causing division and drama, constantly hijacking threads, with empty liturgy twisted in a way that has no true cohesion.

I have watched him closely at PAC. He has his own brand of theology untraceable to anything I have come across. It was all likely made up on the spot, post per post. His only excuse I can see is his reliance on the erroneous translations in the NIV version of the bible, without having ever moved to a more suitable version which is odd for such a person who is into heretical theology.

Personally I think he is a poser.

[Bobbi]

When dealing with people who forthrightly display their lack of honor and accountability, it is a complete waste of time and energy to continue interacting with them on ANY level. Thus, I have brushed the dust off my sandals that have sullied me from AV and moved on. Good riddance!

[Gale]

Wow your really mad. I dont blame you but dont let that anger hurt ya

It's not anger, it's disgust, it’s betrayal.

[k'sha]

Our society,human society in general,doesnt understand anger and therefore is unable to deal with it effectively.

Learning to understand and deal with anger is like learning to handle fire which on an alchemical level is what it is.

In polite society its all about suppressing it because it makes people who can't handle it uncomfortable so we can have 'peace' which is the peace of suppression and fear and therefore,false.(Shades of my mom)

The question to ask is: Is this anger legitimate?

In applying this to the events at AstroVera the answer is quite clearly: yes.

They were deceived,used and betrayed so their hurt and anger is legitimate.

No matter how many people who are uncomfortable with anger say different and try their hardest to suppress the people who were betrayed by attacking and blaming them.Also,telling them to effectively 'get over it' displays a lack of emotional and psychological awareness,as well as a lack of compassion I find appalling.

To try to suppress another person's legitimate feelings is the hallmark of those who lack true self-awareness.

Michael deserves the castigation and consequences directed towards him.He used and played Norval,Bobbi,Gale and Gary.

He also used the sociopathic tactic of blaming and attacking these people.Sociopaths use the tactic of offense being the best defense and have no hesitation in blackening another's reputation in order to preserve their own.This is important to them as the persona of the 'good guy' is an essential cover for their behaviour.

[Gale]

Well, what do you think happend there, or do you know?

Norval, Gale, and Bobbi CURSE Michael Bennie for what he did to Gary, Bobbi, Gale, and Norval.

What say any that read this?

What say you?
I say yes.

[Heretic]

well on the subject as a whole, to be honest what do my judgments really matter for anyway, I was simply watching and was not an the receiving end of any wrong doing, I have no right to stand on a soap box and preach on the justifications of anger and distribute bland pearls of wisdom from an entirely safe and unaffected position.

If I came across that way I truly apologize, I am just a philosophical person and tend to philosophize everything, sometimes to my own undoing.

On the issue of anger and my, perhaps displaced, warning to not let it hurt the owner was meant in the kindest regards, just like saying "be careful with that knife or you might get cut". It was a philosophical stance and not from a place that was derogatory in any way. I have seen anger consume people, fester and become hatred that made them unhappy people their whole life

Reckon the days in which you have not been angry. I used to be angry every day; now every other day; then every third and fourth day; and if you miss it so long as thirty days, offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving to God. ~ Epictetus

Anybody can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody's power, that is not easy. ~ Aristotle

He who angers you conquers you. ~ Elizabeth Kenny

The intoxication of anger, like that of the grape, shows us to others, but hides us from ourselves. ~ John Dryden

you know...that kinda thing, just fuzzy philosophical mumbo jumbo that is not comforting in the least when your pissed

from an intellectual viewpoint anger is a secondary emotion, people become angry due to another emotion like sadness, shame, and fear, in other words anger is really not a true emotion, but the result of one, and it can sometimes overshadow the true emotion up with such domination that the reasons for the anger becomes lost and the key to internal peace is lost with it. Very eastern approach I suppose *shrug*

bah! I am totally off topic now, anyway I just wanted to clear up any misunderstandings I may have caused by my statement on the anger thing because I dont blame you one bit for feeling that way at all. Jesus got REALLY pissed a few times and I firmly believe you shouldn't let people walk on you

[Heretic]

PS - k'sha the wisdom of your post made me re-think my own

thanks for that!

and Bobbi:

good for you!

[Norval]

Leave anger alone. (The Document)
Become angry, but do not make a mistake. (The Document)
And, yes, Jesus got pissed a few times. Now that would be righteous anger. :)

As I have in the past, handed ones over for punishment, cursed them in our Fathers name, I have learned one thing. Get as far from that person as you can after that! Vengeance is not ours, but the Fathers.

[k'sha]

Thanks for being so gracious,Heretic.On reflection I felt a little stricken that my post was too harsh.

Its just that I feel empathy...lots...for what happened at AstroVera.

I had an similar experience but on a much smaller scale recently.

And I get so tired of the way we turn on people who express anger in response to personal injustice.Its legitimate and if allowed to be expressed cleanly is only a passing state.Sometimes attacking an angry response is simply used as a 'straw man' in order to avoid dealing with the injustice.

[Heretic]

And I get so tired of the way we turn on people who express anger in response to personal injustice.Its legitimate and if allowed to be expressed cleanly is only a passing state.Sometimes attacking an angry response is simply used as a 'straw man' in order to avoid dealing with the injustice.

great point k'sha!

perhaps great ideas like political correctness and tolerance are meant to move us towards not speaking out or getting angry when we should

[Heretic]

Those threads were to have vital information in them that people need; they were intended to build over time. People can’t take sensitive information all at once; they will literally pop.

I was curious on how you plan to "build over time" when any new member would simply come here, after it has been built and..."pop"

[Norval]

New wine into old wine skins, oh well.

"POP" is going to become a very common sound me thinks.

[k'sha]

great point k'sha!

perhaps great ideas like political correctness and tolerance are meant to move us towards not speaking out or getting angry when we should

Yes,Heretic,like anything, ideas like political correctness and tolerance can be used an tools of manipulation by unscrupulous groups or individuals to dominate and further their agenda.

An example of this are the accusations of anti-semitism levelled at anyone who questions some of Israels actions or expresses an opinion that criticises the Jewish religion.

Its also used by some pro immigration groups when concerns are raised about the number or type of immigrants that are allowed to enter a country.

It gets to a ridiculous height when the police departments cannot issue a description of an assailant's race.

Or the fuss around Nativity scenes and Christmas carols.

People can be so stupid.

[Norval]

Then ones feel they have to come over here to post a link back to AV?
Like we give a shit about those liars and traitors and betrayers? NOT ! !

Like this one, , , Iraqniphobia

[Gary]

Did someone mention wine?????

[unipax]

Then ones feel they have to come over here to post a link back to AV?

if it happened to be a link to something good, would linking be wrong?

Surely not all the people at AV are betrayers, are they? Arent some of them also members here? I joined there and I made my first post recently.

If a piece of info is good, it doesnt matter where it is found, or does it?

[corleone]

Did someone mention wine?????
YEAHHHHHHHHH, i did.....:bananen_smilies029:

[Omega]

KitKat is heading up to the store right now.... FOR WINE.....

I shit you not..... We are having Karaoke Night with the Relatives...
THIS SHOULD BE FUN..... It's All Japanese NITE... WTF!!!

[Omega]

if it happened to be a link to something good, would linking be wrong?

Surely not all the people at AV are betrayers, are they? Arent some of them also members here? I joined there and I made my first post recently.

If a piece of info is good, it doesnt matter where it is found, or does it?


"Unipax" you have a point.....BUT.... THIS WAS NOT INFO.....

This was "Mikill" trying to stir the POT..... That all.... It was worthless...
He was trying to post a link to his "Comic Book"....... Mindless...
:whacky095::gunsmilie::shit:

[unipax]

OK I get it thnx.
...............................

[Norval]

Don't yah just love the shit stirrers, so entertaining they are, , , :lol:

[Norval]

It seems that some "Smurfs" are causing problems? What do I know about the Smurfs? , , , , uhmmmm they're blue?!

Michael is playing every trick in the book to make AV look busy for the posters and advertisers and reaping the just rewards I am sure.

I stated what Project Avalon / Camelot (PAC) was about long before I left and I did so at AV before we were banned from there. The blind leading the blind.

That is my story and it is sticking to me. :)

[Swami Salami]

It seems that some \"Smurfs\" are causing problems? What do I know about the Smurfs? , , , , uhmmmm they're blue?!

Well Gargamel, Smurfs are one big family..................:chillpill:
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=3618605702705801020&ei=MFapSfCzB4rSjgLup4zvDQ&q=smurfs&hl=nl
Ironically there's one a few posts up..........:sifone:

[Norval]

:lol: even the old fart is hot on the little smurfet, , , whats a Gargamel?

Speaking of WARPIG, he is due back any time now from "work".

[Swami Salami]

even the old fart is hot on the little smurfet, , , whats a Gargamel?

Speaking of WARPIG, he is due back any time now from "work".

:lol: Gargamel is the guy who wants to kill them Smurfs together his cat Asrael.

Yeah I've been waiting for the WARPIG also. He takes his time, whatever he is doing........... Must be a heavy job he's performing.

[Swami Salami]

Gargamel and cat

[zorgon]

The Day After the SHTF in Smurf Ville



When your back is turned...

[Norval]

OMG they have little stubby blue tails?!?!?

Why?

[Gary]

if it happened to be a link to something good, would linking be wrong?

Surely not all the people at AV are betrayers, are they? Arent some of them also members here? I joined there and I made my first post recently.

If a piece of info is good, it doesnt matter where it is found, or does it?

You bounder!....................

[debbieloslo]

I said my goodbyes on Astro Vera this morning. The reason being, is that I am a sensitive, I feel way to much even for strangers, and the vibes there were getting pretty nasty.

Too much drama, centered around a select group. Not a good way to get your point across, or to lure new comers in. I seriously think AV could care less if they get more people on, it's seems to be more ego driven, then fact finding.

With spring in the air, there are grounds to keep, plants to tend and grow, so my main forum now is Earth's Banner, where the company seems to be fine,
and I will not have to weed through all the ego based posts wasting my time just to get to one that has had some thought put into it.

love & peace

[unipax]

Hello Debbie

Welcome !

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[zorgon]

So... no Smurfs here?

:puke:

[Gale]

So... no Smurfs here?


What is a forum definition of a smurf, is that a moderator or dissenter?

[zorgon]

No idea... never figured it out...

[Norval]

Smurfs have their own war, it's not here.

[Omega]

So... no Smurfs here?

:puke:

....Nice to see you again.

[Omega]

Smurfs have their own war, it's not here.

YES, you are correct on that, Thank you...

[Norval]

Hey yah WARPIG. Taking a break? eerrrrrrr (passes the big fat one) *coughs*

[zorgon]

....Nice to see you again.

Hmmm so it seems Herr Smurf...

Got any pictures from the 'journey'? Would like to see them

[Norval]

Seems that the forum is now for members only. You have to sign in to read anything. Gale and I's work is still on the front page of their web site though. :lol:

[sfth13]

I use to go over there to read evey now and then but one day it said that if you are a registered member or guest and cannot see the forum best wishes the forum is now private....

[Norval]

Were you registered? Can you still sign in?

[sfth13]

I was registered and never banned but i can no longer log in.. after entering my user name and password i get this


http://www.astrovera.com/forum/

I can navigate through the menu's but get thiss message:

sfth13, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.


this happened about 2 months ago

[Norval]

:lol: ahhh k, thanks guy. Too funny.

[Norval]

Ass troll vera showing it's true colors, , , ,

http://www.astrovera.com/